and said, i've got a guy that can do the very thing they're doing over in britain, what would have happened. the editor would have said, what do you think about that? let's do it. let's start with this. i've got a better idea. give me your press card. give me your keys. go down the hall and get your check and never come back. they would have kicked these guys out, which is the thing is what repels me about it because i know great british news men who would never dream of doing that, irish news men in dublin and belfast. they would never do that. >> so when you think of rupert murdoch being the guy in charge of these people and that he's in charge of papers here, what do you think? >> well, i -- if he turned a blind eye to it, if he said, i don't care how they got it, we got it, then he has to examine his own conscience because he was creating a culture of corruption, not petty corruption, not getting two tickets to a ball game or something. major corruption. he should be thinking about what he did to the craft of journalism itself. you and i know people who died practicing this profession.